Comment

Comment by Loaves And Fishes Ministries on August 21, 2010 at 2:12am

Hi William,

Thank you for your feedback.

As mentioned in our previous comment, these resources were shared because we believe that there are many things we can learn from them, especially when studied with a revelation of Christ's finished work in mind.

We hope this helps to answer your question and will keep your comments in mind as we continue to improve our site to better cater to each individual.

Please do not let this deter you from making future comments as it's through questions and feedback such as these that we can continue to grow and improve together.

May the Grace of God continue to be with you and may you receive fresh revelations of Jesus and His finished work.

Be Greatly Blessed.

-Admin

Comment by william paddock on August 18, 2010 at 7:42pm

i think we can quit this conversation, i dont actually need an answer to why i got sent conflicting messages as much as just wanted to point out that i did get sent conflicting messages.

and since neither i or god can be convinced that righeousness by faith apart from the law, and righteousness of the law, are the same message, but that they vastly oppose each other like self righteousness and gods righteousness, i will just stop asking my question,

thanks and god bless

Comment by william paddock on August 18, 2010 at 8:29am

you made some great pionts
but messages that i have received links to from you guys , consist of joseph prince preaching against joel osteens message
it is definatly not a matter of two aspects of the same mesage seen differently by 2 preachers
joseph prince without a doubt , point blank preaches against this message of joel osteen, and that is a true fact, joseph princes ministry is without a doubt teaching that the message joel osten preached in that message will cause people to be under a curse and cut off from christ
all you have to do is look at what joseph prince teaches about righteousness and its right thare in black and white, i am not having a problem at all with my understanding of these issues, i jut asked why the conflict?

Comment by Loaves And Fishes Ministries on August 18, 2010 at 2:30am

Hi William,

A blessed day to you.

I believe we should start with a few clarifications before we carry on with the discussion.

Firstly, my comment below is merely a sharing of the revelations I've personally received from this devotional and is not meant to insinuate anything.

I believe Rebecca also added her comments in the spirit of sharing and expressing her love for Jesus. (Just to be clear, she's actually not part of our team so she couldn't have answered your question on why we shared this devotion for us.)

In any case, the messages and sharings on this site are posted in hopes of edifying the spirit, and not to create strife. Therefore, we do apologise if our choice of words were misleading in anyway.

We want you to know that your opinions and sharings are important to us, and that each an every individual on this site means alot to us. We definitely do not want to overlook and would definitely not look down on any genuine questions that you may have.

With the stage set, let us carry on with discussion shall we?

May we sharpen each others understanding of the grace of our Lord, just as iron sharpens iron (Proverbs 27:17)

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Let's start with what I believe is the most important part of the discussion - is righteousness earned through obedience, or is it an unmerited gift from God?

I believe with firm conviction that it's the latter, through the perfect sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. No ounce of righteousness can be added by our deeds, nor can any be removed when we fail. It's through Christ's finished work alone that we are saved, and it's completely by His grace that we achieve right standing with God.

That said, I believe the part of the devotional you are having problems with is the part which says we should choose to obey His commands?

i.e.
How do you seek righteousness? Righteousness is simply being in right standing with God. When you submit your life to Him and choose to obey His commands, you are seeking His righteousness, and you are on the path of the righteous! Just like today's verse says, the light of God's Word will shine brighter and brighter and will guide you in every decision you have to make.

To understand the bolded portion in context, and more importantly, with a revelation of Christ's work, we should probably look at both the text before and after it as well.

What I've received from these words is that when we seek righteousness, it is as simple as receiving the right standing we have with God, through Jesus' work of course.

What then, does it mean to say that we should "submit our life to Him and choose to obey His commands"?

To understand this clearer, we should probably look at it through a shepherd and sheep situation.

When we, the sheep, submit completely to our Shepherd, and trust in Him wholeheartedly, we know that His leadings, guidings, and sometimes even stern commands are meant to keep us safe in His charge. (e.g. If He knows that there's a steep cliff to the right, and asks us to go left instead, it's not meant to be a test for us, such that if we pass, we get a reward, and if we fail, we get punished. Instead, He merely wants us to stay on the right path, and avoid going down the 'valleys of the shadow of death'.)

Therefore, I believe this is not a case of trying to earn righteousness by obeying His commands. Rather, it's the understanding of God's heart and the complete trust in His guidance in our lives.

Notice, how in the verse quoted, it says, "The way of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, which shines ever brighter until the full light of day."

God already sees us as righteous through Jesus work, and it's in this light that He sets the paths before us to keep us safe under His wings.

Whether or not we keep to the path has no effect on the perfect standing we have with Him. Following the path He's prepared for us however, will save us the trouble of having to tread through the dark valleys.

Yet, even if we do stray, our Shepherd never leaves us or forsakes us. Instead, He'll come all the way down to save us, pulling us away from danger with His staff, and fighting away those that threatens us with His rod. He'll even carry us on His shoulders when we are too weak to walk. Just to bring us back to the path of light.(These can all be avoided if we learn to heed His voice though. When we seek His guidance in our everyday lives, in things big and small, it allows us to safely walk down the paths He's already prepared for us.)

This is what I understood from this devotional, and it's what I'm trying to share through the comments.

Please feel free to add more pointers if there's any other part you wish to discuss about this devotional.

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Now with regards to why there appears to be a conflict of messages shared through the site, we believe that this stems from the difference in the way each individual understands the messages.

Our stand is that these devotionals, and many others as well, contain many nuggets of truths that can be gleaned and savoured through sharings like this.

There's much to learn from the Word of God, whether it's through sharings of Pastors like Joel Osteen and Joseph Prince, or from our own study of the Word.

In our opinion, the important thing is to see the Word with a revelation of Jesus' work on the Cross, and allow the Holy Spirit to guide us and reveal His truths to us.

It's the same both with devotionals and with the Bible itself. (e.g. We do not discard the Old Testament or portions of the Law simply because we're now under a new covenant. Instead, when comprehended with Jesus as the thread running through it all, each and every part of the Bible seeks to reveal the Heart of our Father and His great love for us.)

It is to this end that we've shared these resources on our site, and it's definitely not to spread conflict or sow discord by any means.

We're deeply sorry if there's been any confusion and hope this sharing will shed more light on this topic. Our goal here is to help share the love of Jesus, not to cause doubt and strife. So again we'd like to stress that each and every individual on this site is important to us, and we'll continue to improve in order to better cater to all members.

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I sure hope this discussion will be as enjoyable for you and any other member who reads it as it has been for us to share it.

Looking forward to many more fruitful conversations in the future.

Be Greatly Blessed.

-Admin

Comment by william paddock on August 17, 2010 at 8:06pm

aditionally, just to help clear any more confusion, let it be known that i love joel osteen as well as all the other preachers on this site that preach the conflicting messages that osteen preached, and i want them all blessed, as well as anyone who responded to my post, be blessed abundantly in jesus name

but im i the only one that is seeing that joseph prince and the others i am being sent links to preach righteousness by faith apart from law?
that it is received by believing that our sin was traded for his righteousness at the cross and that when we try to earn it we are seperating ourselves from it

and that we also got sent a link to preaching that is totally opposing in that it says that we become righteous by deciding to obey commands, which is trying to earn it.

just wondering why the conflict? shouldent we decide which message is true and stick with it, instead of spreading conflicting messages?

Comment by william paddock on August 17, 2010 at 7:25pm

im not being judgemental or overly opinionated or suggesting we are saved to sin
im just asking why i got sent to me links to 2 totally opposing messages?
and which one you want me to believe?

righteousness by works of the law
or
righteousness by faith apart from the law

you guys sent me both messages, am i wrong to ask why?
and i certainly do not apreciate being called judgmental that is as uncalled for as insinuating that i suggeted we are saved to sin,

Comment by Rebecca on August 17, 2010 at 12:28pm

amen thank you Lord... God bless Joel Osteen and others who continue to live righteously even in so much adversity or judgment for others. i have heard so many opinionated christians and have even been one instead of listening to the truth i judged it. wow i really had the problem. thank you Jesus for truth, conviction, the righteous, and the light you have brought into my life. please continue to shed light on any dark places and give me the strength to humble myself and walk in submission and obedience to you. i want to be as close to you as possible and live right in every way. i am so greatful for the power, the will and the desire to do your good pleasure Lord. keep me all the way to the end!!! i love you Jesus and your ways and people.

Comment by william paddock on August 17, 2010 at 6:11am

i do not contest the fact we are not saved to sin
i am asking why the opossing messages?
blessing by obiediance to commands which is the law that we can never live up to, to get blessed
and the totally opposite message i see preached on this site of blessing by the rightiousness of faith apart from obiediance of commands
paul clearly taught these messages dont mix but and are complete oposites, yet they are preached from the same website
whare is the cross, if rightiousness could be attained by deciding to obey commands as olsteen says, we dont need the cross or a savior, we could be our own savior,
i would have to agree with the other preachers on your site who say righteousness is a gift that cannot be earned, and that jesus gives it to us apart from works.
these 2 messages do not mix no matter how you look at it and thare is no bible passage that says they do mix,to the contrary, paul wrote extensivly on the fact of grace without works.
as do the other preachers on this site, who preach extensively against osteens message of earned righteousness

and blessing

Comment by Loaves And Fishes Ministries on August 17, 2010 at 5:41am

Hi William,

Indeed, "earned grace is not grace at all".

It's through Jesus' perfect work and by God's goodness alone that we are saved.

Yet, it's important to remember that we are saved from sin, not saved to sin.

When Jesus died on the Cross for us, not only did He redeem us from the punishments for sin, He also saved us from the dominion of sin itself.

This is why Romans 6:14 says, "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace."

When we receive our right standing with God through Jesus' work, and behold His majesty and beauty through His Word, we are changed into His likeness and are transformed from glory to glory (2 Corinthians 3:18), making our paths brighter with every step.

Through understanding the amazing grace of our Lord, we'll fall deeper in love with Him and lose the desire to sin, which is why He says in Hebrews 8:10, "I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts."

The difference here is that we are no longer trying to earn God's favor by acting right, but rather, we naturally want to act right because of God's favor.

Therefore, when we seek His kingdom and righteousness (Jesus), all the other blessings of God will also be added onto us (Matthew 6:33).

The clearer we see Jesus and His love for us, the brighter will be our paths ahead, and the clearer will be His guidance in our lives, bringing us closer to His plan and purpose for us (3 John 1:2).

When we understand the grace of our Lord and His deep love for us, we can all also learn to see the beauty of His work in every situation.

Be Greatly Blessed.

-Admin

Comment by william paddock on August 17, 2010 at 4:17am

isent it i little confusing to have one preacher preaching the supposid blessings of the righteousness of the law and other preachers preaching blessing by righteousness of faith because of god grace.

could any 2 messages be more opposing?

how can they be on the same website?

it is shure that earned grace is not grace at all it is works , and you cant mix earned favor with unearned favor,, so why are we?

the bible clearly states that when we try to earn favor of god, we are fallen from grace and alienated from christ, grace is unearned, it is totally dependant upon gods goodness apart from obiediance to commands,

this mesage of osteens is the law that is finished in christ, for all who believe, and is totally contrary to the gospel

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